English for Newcomers within the Workplace

[00:00:05] You are listening to ESL Talk, a podcast made for English teachers by English teachers.

[00:00:12] Hello everyone, welcome to another new episode of ESL Talk. I'm your host Daniel.

[00:00:34] And I'm Faye.

[00:00:36] And today we're talking about English for newcomers within the workplace. I really like this topic this week, Faye.

[00:00:43] Yeah, me too. It's something that both of us have experienced in, I guess.

[00:00:47] Both as newcomers to Canada and as teachers to newcomers in Canada.

[00:00:52] Exactly. And we're going to hear from an English workplace coach.

[00:00:55] Her name's Leah, and she does a lot of fantastic work helping newcomers in Canada.

[00:01:01] And also, you know, helping them with their English, helping them with functional skills and being able to be an asset in the Canadian workplace.

[00:01:09] So hopefully as a teacher, there's a lot that you can take from today's episode.

[00:01:12] If you're working with newcomers, new immigrants and people who need to improve their English for work purposes.

[00:01:18] True. And, you know, as we said, we both have had a lot of experience with this.

[00:01:24] So do you want to share a little bit of your experience first helping newcomers in Canada?

[00:01:28] Yeah, I've had a lot of experience of this, you know, in terms of university, in terms of colleges, in terms of schools, in terms of helping students online.

[00:01:37] Yeah, absolutely. I really love working with this group of learners and this type of English because the results are really tangible.

[00:01:46] Like you can see the improvement that you've made.

[00:01:48] And I think with helping newcomers as well, you know, that they're not just learning a new language, but a new culture, a new way of life.

[00:01:56] They're navigating things that might seem pretty trivial to you.

[00:02:00] But there's times when I'll have students reach out after a year or two years and be like, hey, do you know how to do this?

[00:02:06] Or I need your help with this.

[00:02:07] Or what does this mean on this form that I got to fill in, et cetera?

[00:02:10] So it's not just helping them with their workplace and their career.

[00:02:14] It's also helping them with their daily life as well.

[00:02:16] And I think as a teacher, you can really support students in a really wide sense and in a really valuable way.

[00:02:25] So I have a lot of experience with this and I do really enjoy it.

[00:02:28] But what about for you, Faye?

[00:02:29] Yeah, I love the impact we make, you know, because when you teach international students that just come for English and then go back to their country,

[00:02:37] you don't really know how they're going to use that.

[00:02:40] Maybe they do, but, you know, it's just it's more general.

[00:02:42] It's more broad and you don't get to see it.

[00:02:45] But when it's for newcomers, their motivation is usually really, you know, really high.

[00:02:50] They're very self-motivated.

[00:02:52] And like you said, you're teaching them something that they really need to apply.

[00:02:57] And there's you see that and you can use your own experience for us, especially as a newcomer.

[00:03:03] You can use that, you know, it makes that all of your experiences much more valuable, too.

[00:03:09] So I really love that.

[00:03:10] And for me, recently working more with like refugees and immigrants specifically has been great because it's actually survival English.

[00:03:18] They need that to survive in this culture and in this country.

[00:03:21] And it just it just, you know, makes it even more rewarding as a teacher.

[00:03:27] Now, what do you feel like what kind of skills more specifically now talking about the workplace?

[00:03:34] What skills do you feel that teachers need to help their students with in terms of their English in the workplace?

[00:03:39] Yeah, it's quite funny because when I started this, I thought we need very formal, academic, high level professional skills, which definitely is relevant.

[00:03:49] But what I've started to do now is try to have a blend of informal situations, formal situations.

[00:03:55] So a client or student might say to me, Daniel, here's the job I'm going to be doing.

[00:03:59] What do I need to help me?

[00:04:00] OK, well, for example, like I've mentioned before, I'm currently working with some bankers and they're making that transition from an Asian market to North American market.

[00:04:10] And there's little words and little phrases that they really need to help them.

[00:04:14] And there's expressions and little things.

[00:04:17] And what's great is they're actually really eager to learn these things so that they can better build relationships within the workplace.

[00:04:23] So, yeah, I want to be good at doing my job, but I also want to be good at building relationships, building networks, the day to day little things, the lunch breaks, the before, the afterward, the social aspects.

[00:04:34] So I'd say it's a combination of the work functions as well as with the social aspects as well.

[00:04:41] So it's a lot of fun in that sense.

[00:04:43] Do you find the same?

[00:04:44] Exactly, because, yeah, I feel like it's different when you're teaching business English, because often when we teach business English, it's for students who are dealing with an international market.

[00:04:52] Or they're working in their own country with a company in the U.S.

[00:04:55] But when you're teaching newcomers to Canada, they need to build those relationships.

[00:04:59] It's much more important for them to have that social skill as well in the workplace, because they're trying to insert themselves in the culture as well as do their work.

[00:05:11] So I feel like that's even more important in that case.

[00:05:14] So, yeah, I totally agree with you.

[00:05:15] Like doing that blend is so important for them rather than just sticking to that business content and the formal type of English.

[00:05:23] Right?

[00:05:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:24] I think, you know, I think it is good to give that formal professional stuff.

[00:05:29] But in a lot of situations, it's like, well, if you're having a chat with a coworker, you're not really going to use this language.

[00:05:33] Or if you're talking to someone in another department, you probably would need to be more formal, but less here.

[00:05:39] And I think it's learning those nuances which are really important, which I think.

[00:05:44] But for you as a teacher with some of the groups of students that you've worked with, Faye, what are some challenges that you've seen kind of as a teacher in the classroom kind of doing, you know, daily kind of tasks?

[00:05:57] What are some challenges you've seen?

[00:05:59] You know, what I've seen most challenging that has been most challenging both to teach and for my students to experience is the type of like how Canadians give feedback in the workplace.

[00:06:15] The whole idea of sandwiching the feedback is a big thing here where, you know, Canadians are very tend to be very polite, but also direct in a way.

[00:06:24] But it's, you know, it's like they will say like something nice and then but actually they're trying to criticize something, but then they'll finish with another nice thing.

[00:06:34] And then sometimes that message can get really confusing for students.

[00:06:37] They're like, I don't know if my boss is mad at me or if I'm doing okay or so navigate that, that, you know, it's, it's, it's not really the tone.

[00:06:49] It's more like the style of feedback, the style of conversation that we see here in Canada.

[00:06:55] Even for me, this was a challenge as a newcomer.

[00:06:57] When I, my first, very first job at a coffee shop, I worked with a Canadian manager, but the owner of the coffee shop, he was Israeli and he was very direct.

[00:07:09] And I often thought he was mad at me, but it was just the way he talked.

[00:07:13] And then he would say something and I thought he was mad.

[00:07:15] And then the manager would come and kind of say the same thing, but in a very different way.

[00:07:20] And I would be like, okay, this is a, this is a cultural thing I need to.

[00:07:25] And because again, in Canada, there's so many newcomers also preparing your students to deal with people that are not necessarily from here that will have this different style of feedback.

[00:07:35] And I think the biggest lesson is teaching your students not to take things personally and just keep an open mind to the fact that things might be getting lost in cultural translation.

[00:07:46] Not necessarily the language, right?

[00:07:48] You've reminded me of something else about, about taking things literally because there was someone I was working with who was applying for a lot of jobs and she found that people say, oh, you know, we thought you were a wonderful candidate.

[00:08:01] We had everything.

[00:08:01] We're going to keep your resume and we will get in touch with you as soon as we have something.

[00:08:04] And she was waiting, but I was like, well, maybe they're just trying to be, they don't want to maybe, you know, be disparaging or make you feel upset.

[00:08:12] So maybe they're trying to think about your feelings.

[00:08:13] So it's about sensitivity.

[00:08:14] And she's like, well, if they don't want me, why don't they just say?

[00:08:18] And I'm like, well, again, it's kind of a difference between North America and, you know, Latin America, where you've come from, because people tend to be very direct.

[00:08:27] So it is a big difference.

[00:08:29] It's a big shift.

[00:08:29] Again, I guess you just have to set those expectations and try to help our learners cut through kind of all the niceties and the cultural differences, which can be tricky, but it is important for sure.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:44] And then, yeah, I was just going to ask you about in your experience working with these different organizations and college and university.

[00:08:51] Do you think that these places are set up to support newcomers in that sense?

[00:08:56] I think.

[00:08:57] Aside from the language part?

[00:08:59] Yeah, I think it's really difficult.

[00:09:01] And I think from my experience as an immigrant, you know, I've immigrated to different countries.

[00:09:05] I've lived in different countries as a newcomer.

[00:09:07] And I think you just have to experience that, like real life experience, I think, is the most valuable teacher.

[00:09:15] You know, you can read guides and watch videos and get a feel for things.

[00:09:19] But I think just getting jumping in feet first and just trying it is the best way to learn things on the job.

[00:09:26] Because, again, I can read all the books about how to make the best cup of coffee in the world.

[00:09:30] But unless I have it in front of me, I'm not necessarily going to be able to do it.

[00:09:34] But so I would say schools and universities, they do do a good job in helping prepare students.

[00:09:39] But again, they have to be hands-on focused.

[00:09:43] Yeah.

[00:09:43] The only exception I would say to that is some schools now do things, you know, like nursing, social care, those kind of programs, which are very hands-on and very workplace based.

[00:09:53] So I think schools and universities education, they could do a little bit more maybe giving them real hands-on experience.

[00:10:00] I think that would be the best.

[00:10:00] Maybe like practicum and connections with companies where they can just shadow somebody or, yeah.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:08] And internships, I know that process can be really difficult and really tricky.

[00:10:12] Yeah.

[00:10:12] Even some of our guests we spoke to, they went through a very difficult process, even as people from that country.

[00:10:18] Yeah.

[00:10:19] So I think more internships, more kind of apprenticeships.

[00:10:23] Hands-on experience.

[00:10:24] Yeah.

[00:10:24] It's the best tool that I would say.

[00:10:26] Absolutely.

[00:10:27] Speaking of tools, if I'm a teacher and I would want to get some tools for English workplace skills, you know, that kind of thing, resources, materials, what would you suggest as some good places to start?

[00:10:39] That's another tricky one.

[00:10:41] Because it's so specific.

[00:10:43] Yes.

[00:10:44] I think that I would start with where exactly is the student going to be?

[00:10:51] Yes.

[00:10:51] So if they're going to be in BC, I would look at all of the newcomer guides.

[00:10:57] There's so much stuff.

[00:10:58] And I only learned about this stuff now that I work for a nonprofit that supports immigrants and refugees.

[00:11:05] Now I found out there's all these guides for newcomers.

[00:11:09] Yes, there is.

[00:11:10] And they're, like, available online.

[00:11:12] And so a basic Google search of newcomers guide BC, newcomers to BC or whatever, will bring up, like, health guides and workplace guides and navigating, yeah, like the culture.

[00:11:28] And there's all these resources that most people don't know about.

[00:11:33] And they are made and produced and distributed by the government usually or these organizations that work with the government.

[00:11:39] So I'd highly recommend doing that.

[00:11:41] I'm sure you'll find something that's more local and more applicable to where you are or where your students are going to be.

[00:11:47] Yeah, 100%.

[00:11:48] Do you have any other recommendations?

[00:11:49] That's exactly what I was going to say.

[00:11:50] You know, look at the industry guides.

[00:11:54] Because especially, you know, a lot of students who are going to work in fields like tech, like engineering, like nursing, like these kinds of programs that are very popular now.

[00:12:02] There's a lot of support for them because different countries, different provinces, different states are trying to attract those people.

[00:12:08] So do your searches there.

[00:12:10] Do your research there.

[00:12:11] You can get a lot of good resources.

[00:12:13] And also what you can do is you can actually start preparing your student.

[00:12:17] I've prepared nurses before and I've said, okay, you're moving to this state and this is the guide that's available.

[00:12:22] And these are the kind of things that they need.

[00:12:24] And this is going to be a day-to-day role.

[00:12:26] So let's work on vocabulary and let's work on tasks related to that.

[00:12:31] So that would be the best place to start.

[00:12:32] Yeah.

[00:12:33] In terms of just, you know, general things to help you.

[00:12:35] Again, we've promoted a lot of really fantastic resources on here.

[00:12:40] Different websites you can use for language-based stuff.

[00:12:42] Again, there's a lot of cheaper subscription places.

[00:12:45] We've talked about LinguaHouse before.

[00:12:47] We've talked about Breaking News English.

[00:12:49] We've talked about Crystal Clear ESL.

[00:12:51] So there's resources.

[00:12:52] ELLI, right?

[00:12:53] ELLI.

[00:12:54] There's a lot of great places where you can get free and paid materials to help support you as well.

[00:12:59] So I think maybe we should speak to the expert, Leah.

[00:13:03] So let's get into today's interview with Leah.

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[00:13:42] All right.

[00:13:43] Thanks again, Leah.

[00:13:44] That was wonderful.

[00:13:54] All right, Leah.

[00:13:55] Hello.

[00:13:55] Welcome.

[00:13:55] Thank you for joining us today.

[00:13:57] Thanks for having me.

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:13:59] It's great to have you here.

[00:14:01] And today's topic, I think, is very useful for a lot of our

[00:14:05] listeners and teachers listening to us.

[00:14:07] So could you first share a little bit about your background and what inspired you to become

[00:14:12] a workplace English coach for newcomers?

[00:14:15] Absolutely.

[00:14:16] My probably my way to becoming an ESL teacher is a lot different.

[00:14:20] My first degree is actually business and human resources.

[00:14:24] From there, I decided I like the HR, but I wanted to do more teaching.

[00:14:28] So I actually went back and got my regular teaching, like Manitoba Teachers Society certificate,

[00:14:34] and then actually got into adult education.

[00:14:36] And that's where I really found what I liked.

[00:14:39] So I was in over a decade.

[00:14:41] I worked in adult education training, helping adults get into the workplace, having the skills

[00:14:47] they need to be successful.

[00:14:48] Um, while I was doing that, in the back of my mind, I'd always wanted to get my ESL certificate.

[00:14:54] Um, my brother had done the JET program.

[00:14:56] He'd gone overseas, taught English, um, still does that part-time out in Calgary.

[00:15:00] So while I was there, it was sort of one of those goals.

[00:15:03] And then as I decided to sort of transition out of that, um, yeah, I got my ESL certificate

[00:15:07] and it was very interesting how I actually got into the workplace English.

[00:15:13] It was one of the workplaces that I was working with at the time.

[00:15:15] They were talking about how, um, they wish they could find an English teacher to come

[00:15:19] in and teach English.

[00:15:20] They were a rural company.

[00:15:21] Um, right.

[00:15:22] Everyone always forgets about the city or about outside of the cities, right?

[00:15:26] It's like in the cities, but nothing's outside.

[00:15:28] And I grew up in rural.

[00:15:30] I live in rural now.

[00:15:31] And so I said to them, well, I could do that.

[00:15:33] I'm like, I'm getting my ESL.

[00:15:34] And they're like, once you're done, let us know.

[00:15:37] So yeah, that's how I got into that about four years ago.

[00:15:41] And I'm loving it.

[00:15:43] That's very interesting.

[00:15:43] Your journey is actually not that unusual.

[00:15:46] I think a lot of us end up falling into ESL, myself included, but it's interesting how you

[00:15:53] specialized and yeah, like you said, found this niche, but it's just a, definitely a

[00:15:58] huge need in Canada right now.

[00:16:00] A hundred percent.

[00:16:01] Yeah.

[00:16:01] That's, that's something I was going to say because so many employers and companies, they

[00:16:05] say, you know, we want our staff to be better trained, to be able to communicate better.

[00:16:08] We want to retain our staff, make them feel valued.

[00:16:10] And that improves everything for customers, for clients or everything.

[00:16:14] So what are some of the most common challenges newcomers face when they're trying to communicate

[00:16:19] in a Canadian or a North American workplace?

[00:16:21] What are some of the things you found working with those students and clients?

[00:16:24] So number one, it's that Canadian workplace expectations, right?

[00:16:29] Like, you know, any, anyone who goes to any new country, right?

[00:16:32] There's, there's certain norms and, and cultural expectations that countries have, right?

[00:16:37] Canada is no, no difference.

[00:16:39] So, you know, it's, it's learning what those are.

[00:16:42] It's understanding those expectations in the workplace.

[00:16:46] So that's, that's a huge one, right?

[00:16:49] Number two, some people might not like this, but I think a lot of times people think their

[00:16:54] English is actually better than it is.

[00:16:56] Right.

[00:16:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:57] Right.

[00:16:58] Oftentimes I'll be in workplaces and I'll have management say, I wish so-and-so would

[00:17:02] come to your classes, but you know, but that they think their English is okay.

[00:17:06] But it's like, we can understand, you know, their accent is very strong or they're speaking

[00:17:12] too fast.

[00:17:13] And that person doesn't feel that they need it, but they're not realizing that, that they're

[00:17:19] actually being held back because of that.

[00:17:21] Right.

[00:17:21] Right.

[00:17:21] Because in Canadian culture, you know, I tell people this, you know, we're, we're very

[00:17:26] nice.

[00:17:27] Most people will not say to someone, you need to slow down.

[00:17:29] I can't understand you.

[00:17:30] Yeah.

[00:17:31] Right.

[00:17:31] What's going to happen is you're just not going to get hired or you're not going to get

[00:17:35] promoted.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:37] You know, and then you won't know why.

[00:17:38] Right.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:40] Yeah.

[00:17:41] That's very true.

[00:17:42] Probably the two biggest things.

[00:17:44] Um, another thing I think, um, when it comes to sort of the Canadian culture is, um, understanding

[00:17:52] in the workplace where and when to speak your first language, you know, um, this is kind

[00:17:58] of another, I think, cultural thing.

[00:17:59] Sometimes, um, I would say to people, okay, if you're in a group and let's say everyone

[00:18:05] there speaks Spanish and it's lunchtime, speak Spanish.

[00:18:07] 100%.

[00:18:08] You're on your break.

[00:18:09] No problem.

[00:18:09] But if you're during the work hours and half of you speak Spanish and half of you speak

[00:18:13] English, you need to speak English because Canadians like to feel included.

[00:18:18] And if you're speaking the language, they can't be included in that conversation.

[00:18:22] Even if, you know, even if it's just something small, we want to contribute.

[00:18:26] Right.

[00:18:27] Um, and, and if you can't then say, sorry, I don't have the language.

[00:18:30] Just give me a minute.

[00:18:31] Acknowledge them at least that they're not standing and feeling awkward.

[00:18:35] Right.

[00:18:35] And I think a lot of people don't realize that, but they're like, well, I'm not talking

[00:18:39] about them.

[00:18:39] And I know, right.

[00:18:40] It's easier to speak your first language, but you have to think of those factors that

[00:18:46] are going to affect your, how it goes in the workplace.

[00:18:49] Yeah.

[00:18:50] And I like how you phrase that as some, it's some, it's a cultural thing.

[00:18:53] And we know that that has a huge importance as well.

[00:18:56] Right.

[00:18:56] Apart from the language itself.

[00:18:59] Um, and now can you provide maybe some practical tips that for any newcomers that are want to

[00:19:07] improve their English communication skills on the job, apart from being, having that awareness.

[00:19:11] Number one, people have to realize that it takes a long time to increase your English,

[00:19:18] right?

[00:19:18] Like I always say to people, it takes around 500 hours to increase by one level.

[00:19:23] So if you're at a Canadian language benchmark of like three and you want to get to eight,

[00:19:27] that's a lot of work.

[00:19:28] So number one, even if your English isn't great, just speak English.

[00:19:32] Anytime you get the opportunity at work, speak English, right?

[00:19:37] Doesn't matter if it's great or not.

[00:19:38] It's, it's giving you more and more confidence.

[00:19:41] I noticed the people who just speak it and try get way better faster than the people who

[00:19:46] are, well, my English isn't good enough yet.

[00:19:49] Right.

[00:19:51] So number one, that's the number six.

[00:19:53] Number two, get that industry specific language.

[00:19:57] You know, if you come to Canada and let's say you were a vet in your home country, right?

[00:20:04] But maybe you're working in manufacturing now, just because you don't have the language,

[00:20:08] it's an entry level position that doesn't require a lot of language.

[00:20:10] You need to start working on that language now or for whatever your goals are, right?

[00:20:15] You know, get a job, maybe at, you know, a vet hospital, if you can, maybe an entry level

[00:20:21] position, right?

[00:20:22] But you need to start working on that, the language that you need for the job currently

[00:20:26] and the language for the goals you have in the future.

[00:20:29] Cause that takes a lot of time, right?

[00:20:30] If your goal is to be in HR, you should be working on that now because you never know

[00:20:34] when those opportunities are going to come up and you're not going to learn it all in

[00:20:38] a week.

[00:20:38] Another thing, get involved in the workplace.

[00:20:41] Uh, and when I mean involved, I mean, get involved in like volunteering.

[00:20:45] If they have parties, you know, go to the party, get it, make it a goal to get outside

[00:20:50] your comfort zone.

[00:20:52] Don't stay with the group that speaks with your, maybe your culture that speaks a similar

[00:20:56] language, right?

[00:20:57] Yes.

[00:20:58] You know, make it a goal to make friends with other cultures and other people because

[00:21:02] it's going to force you to speak language.

[00:21:04] Oh, you know, you need to do it.

[00:21:06] You have to put yourself in situations that force you to do it.

[00:21:09] Otherwise you're not going to do it.

[00:21:11] You know, and especially for working adults, like we're all busy.

[00:21:16] It's not that easy just to go take a class.

[00:21:18] So I'm very much about put yourself in situations where you have to speak it, you know, and then

[00:21:24] that's going to do doing something.

[00:21:27] Yep.

[00:21:28] Yeah.

[00:21:28] I love, I love those tips.

[00:21:30] And definitely, um, I, I really resonate with what you say because I speak to, to my

[00:21:35] students and they're like, Oh, I really want to improve X or really want to improve

[00:21:38] why.

[00:21:39] And I'm like, here's how you can do it within your job every day.

[00:21:42] Try to do this, try to do this, make that.

[00:21:44] Oh, but you know, maybe my colleagues don't want me to bother them.

[00:21:46] My boss.

[00:21:47] I'm like, I'm sure they wouldn't mind a short route.

[00:21:49] If it's relevant and appropriate, they would really appreciate that.

[00:21:51] And we'll show you making the effort.

[00:21:53] So great tips and great suggestions.

[00:21:55] And I think too, sorry, just add one more.

[00:21:57] Ask to make sure people understand you because like I said, we're all playing.

[00:22:01] We'll go.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:02] Okay.

[00:22:02] Thanks.

[00:22:03] And then we'll say to our coworkers, did you know what they said?

[00:22:06] Right.

[00:22:06] Right.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:07] Hey, it's okay to say to someone, did you understand me?

[00:22:10] Or is my accent?

[00:22:11] Was that clear?

[00:22:12] Yeah.

[00:22:12] Yeah.

[00:22:13] Just ask.

[00:22:13] And people, you know, they might be polite.

[00:22:16] Don't be like, Oh no, it's fine.

[00:22:17] But a lot of people will say, actually, could you speak a bit slower?

[00:22:20] Cause I found that.

[00:22:21] And then you'll know where your language is at as well.

[00:22:25] That's a great point.

[00:22:26] It is.

[00:22:26] I usually give like a little cheat sheet to, to all my students that I work with where

[00:22:31] it's kind of phrases you can use to check, to clarify, to confirm.

[00:22:35] And then that way they just have a starting point so they can keep the conversation going.

[00:22:39] Now, when it comes to employers, Leah, what role do employers play in supporting newcomers

[00:22:44] with their English language development?

[00:22:45] I'm going to say not much, but maybe you can shed a little bit more light on that.

[00:22:49] Well, I think with all the recent changes to immigration to Canada, I think employers

[00:22:54] have a lot that they could be doing.

[00:22:57] I think that it's sort of changing.

[00:23:00] A lot of employers are realizing that we have so many amazingly qualified newcomers in Canada.

[00:23:07] The only thing holding them back is language, right?

[00:23:11] And the problem is a lot of workplaces don't have the structures currently in place to support

[00:23:15] that, right?

[00:23:16] So a lot of workplaces are starting to think outside the box and saying, okay, you know,

[00:23:22] let's incorporate something to that.

[00:23:25] We can help our staff get that language while they're working with us, right?

[00:23:29] So that we can promote them within and continue to promote them within.

[00:23:33] So, you know, for example, like I have my own business, but I also work for the company

[00:23:39] Engine, which is a language platform, right?

[00:23:42] One of our large companies that we work with is Amazon, right?

[00:23:46] So people who work there can access language supports while they're working, right?

[00:23:51] So it's thinking outside the box.

[00:23:52] Like it's looking at language like professional development, right?

[00:23:56] We encourage people to learn French.

[00:23:58] Why aren't we doing the same for English?

[00:24:00] Because, you know, it's changing in Canada, right?

[00:24:03] Not everyone speaks it.

[00:24:05] So we need to offer those supports and structures in the workplace to do that.

[00:24:10] So I think we're not there yet, but a lot of workplaces are starting to realize it.

[00:24:14] And I think it's going to change a lot more in the next couple of years.

[00:24:19] Yeah.

[00:24:19] And it makes a lot of sense for employers to invest in that too.

[00:24:23] Because as you said, we do have all these really qualified people ready to get into the

[00:24:29] job market.

[00:24:30] But yeah, they could be contributing a lot more and just, you know, fulfilling their potential

[00:24:35] more in the company if that barrier was taken down.

[00:24:40] Um, now have you noticed any specific industries or job roles where these barriers are more

[00:24:46] pronounced for newcomers?

[00:24:50] Um, I think it's very much the more credentials or I would say it's probably very interrelated

[00:24:57] with pay really, right?

[00:24:58] The higher the position, the more expectations, the more language you need.

[00:25:03] And if there's credentials, then that just increases it as well.

[00:25:06] You know, for example, um, you know, I've gotten one of my workplaces, I have someone

[00:25:11] who was a doctor in their home country.

[00:25:13] Right.

[00:25:13] And so, you know, they came with zero English, right?

[00:25:16] So they're here in their, their second year now.

[00:25:18] So, you know, they're probably at about a CLB five, six, but they still have a couple

[00:25:23] of years to go still.

[00:25:24] Right.

[00:25:24] Cause you have to be at that advanced level.

[00:25:26] If you want to get into the medical, you know, train, I don't know the whole process,

[00:25:30] but to get to that next level.

[00:25:32] So, you know, I always say CLB like three to five, that's going to get you your entry

[00:25:37] level position, but if you want a specific career or specific credential recognition,

[00:25:43] you need that CLB eight or higher, like 100%, you know, and anything less you're, you're

[00:25:49] not going to be where you want.

[00:25:50] If you've got a lot of higher education and that's where you want to go and it takes

[00:25:55] time.

[00:25:55] So that's why I tell people like 500 hours, every level, like about that every time you

[00:26:00] don't want to study at night.

[00:26:02] Yeah.

[00:26:03] It makes perfect sense because like you said, you have, if you have high qualifications,

[00:26:06] you need your language to match that.

[00:26:09] Right.

[00:26:09] You've studied so much.

[00:26:11] We often compare like teaching elementary level English.

[00:26:13] It's almost like the students are kids again, even their personality changes a bit because

[00:26:18] right.

[00:26:19] Their language is not there.

[00:26:20] They can't express themselves that easily.

[00:26:22] So yeah, that makes it complete.

[00:26:23] And it's hard.

[00:26:24] You know, I empathize, empathize with that because it was multiple degrees and it's

[00:26:29] like, it's like, you're literally back to square one.

[00:26:31] You know what I mean?

[00:26:32] Like you have all this knowledge and you just express it.

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:37] Frustrating for sure.

[00:26:38] Oh, frustrating.

[00:26:39] Yeah.

[00:26:40] Definitely.

[00:26:40] Definitely.

[00:26:41] So on that note, what resources or what tools do you recommend for new colors to

[00:26:46] practice and enhance their workplace English?

[00:26:48] Because there's a lot of general ESL style stuff out there, but what are some specific

[00:26:52] tools for the workplace that students can access and they can start building and improving

[00:26:56] their English quickly?

[00:26:57] So, um, number one, I tell everyone I'm very much, I won't say free resources, but I want

[00:27:04] the realistic free resources.

[00:27:05] Right.

[00:27:05] So number one, go and volunteer.

[00:27:07] Like that is the number one thing I tell everyone to do.

[00:27:12] Pick an industry or pick something you enjoy and go volunteer at it.

[00:27:16] You will, your English will improve huge because, and you're getting free training and you're

[00:27:23] getting networking experience and you're getting references.

[00:27:27] You're getting everything for free.

[00:27:30] Right.

[00:27:30] Um, so number one, that's something I tell people to be successful.

[00:27:34] Another great resource.

[00:27:36] And I wrote it down because I always forget the name of it.

[00:27:38] Um, it's the, it's the Canada job bank, um, essential skills profile.

[00:27:44] And I'll send you the link after what it is.

[00:27:46] It's an amazing.

[00:27:47] And I know this is from my old workplace.

[00:27:49] Cause we use it a lot.

[00:27:50] It has any job you can think of.

[00:27:52] And it has all the skills like the oral communication, the writing skills.

[00:27:56] I tell people go to that site, find the job that you want.

[00:27:59] And ask yourself, do I have the language to do all of those things?

[00:28:03] And if you don't, there's your starting point right there.

[00:28:06] If you can't do all those things, then you're not ready for that job.

[00:28:10] And that's what you work towards.

[00:28:12] Right.

[00:28:13] Um, it's very much to me, um, you need to have the language for that job and it can be

[00:28:19] very specific.

[00:28:20] So you, you really have to look at the career you want and you have to break down the skills

[00:28:24] that are required for that job and then think about, okay, what language is required for

[00:28:29] those skills?

[00:28:30] I like that.

[00:28:31] That's a great tool.

[00:28:32] And I'll add it in the description as well for everyone who's listening.

[00:28:35] Cause I really think that would be really great.

[00:28:37] Yeah.

[00:28:37] I love that.

[00:28:38] I even wrote it down because, you know, it makes total sense.

[00:28:40] Cause as teachers, we're always looking at like CLB, for example, which is the can do

[00:28:44] right.

[00:28:45] Right.

[00:28:45] Yeah.

[00:28:46] Level three students can do this, this, this, this, this, but this would be specifically to

[00:28:50] their job.

[00:28:51] And as a teacher too, for all the teachers listening out there, this can help you tailor

[00:28:56] your content to your students specifically.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:29:00] Well, and, and that's sort of my old job.

[00:29:02] Um, I don't know if you guys are familiar with essential skills.

[00:29:04] It's currently called skills for success, but anyway, um, CLBs and essential skills are

[00:29:10] very interrelated.

[00:29:11] Like there's, there's actually, I should find it.

[00:29:13] There's actually a manual on it that shows if you have these language level, these are

[00:29:17] your skills, sort of your skills in Canada right now.

[00:29:20] Um, you know, so it's very, it's very related to your, your language and your skills and what

[00:29:25] you can do in the workplace.

[00:29:27] I love that.

[00:29:28] Would you say that like the, the background of the learner, like where they're coming

[00:29:33] from, would that also be something that you should take into account as well?

[00:29:36] You think that's something that we should also kind of factor in alongside

[00:29:39] their background.

[00:29:41] Like the, do you mean like their work experience or like that work experience, maybe their culture,

[00:29:45] maybe the country they've lived in the first language.

[00:29:47] Would you say those, those play a role as well in helping them prepare for those jobs

[00:29:50] and roles or not so much?

[00:29:52] I think it really, you know what?

[00:29:54] I think it really depends.

[00:29:55] And I would think it really depends on how open a person is to adapt.

[00:29:58] You know what I mean?

[00:29:59] Like I'm all for like, you 100% keep your culture, but you have to be willing to adapt

[00:30:04] a bit, right?

[00:30:06] You know, it's Canada, you know, English is the working language.

[00:30:09] Um, you know, if anything, just think of it as adding to your culture, right?

[00:30:14] So I don't think it really matters where you come from.

[00:30:16] I think it matters.

[00:30:17] Um, are you willing to be open and to learn and to try new ideas and meet people?

[00:30:24] You know, that's, that's really what it is.

[00:30:26] I mean, there's lots of people out there who are amazingly successful because they just,

[00:30:31] they just jump in, right?

[00:30:32] Like there's this great quote, it's like jump in and the net will follow.

[00:30:35] Right.

[00:30:36] To me, that's the attitude you have to have in Canada.

[00:30:38] Just jump in and figure it out.

[00:30:40] You know, mess up.

[00:30:41] You're going to say some English that you're going to cringe later, but who cares?

[00:30:45] Like just, like we're adults, right?

[00:30:48] Like most adults don't care.

[00:30:51] They just want you to try and they'll happily help you for correct.

[00:30:55] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:57] Um, now on that note, since you've seen so many different cases and different people

[00:31:02] being more willing, less willing and all that, can you share a success story of a newcomer

[00:31:06] who significantly improved their workplace English and how that impacted their career?

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:11] Like I think of this one company, I can do a specific, but I'll sort of do a general one

[00:31:15] to this one company I've been in because I'm in my third year now with them and I

[00:31:19] go in every week and I teach English for a couple hours.

[00:31:21] We have a beginner class.

[00:31:22] We have an advanced class.

[00:31:23] Um, and, and the two examples I'll give number one for the company itself.

[00:31:28] So I've been in there.

[00:31:30] Yeah.

[00:31:30] Over two years now, I would say 90% of the people who started there are still there and

[00:31:36] they've all moved into different positions.

[00:31:38] A lot of them have bought houses.

[00:31:40] They're settling.

[00:31:41] So I think that gives a great example of what having English at your workplace can just do

[00:31:46] in terms of keeping staff and retaining them.

[00:31:50] Right.

[00:31:51] Right.

[00:31:51] And then another specific one is very similar in that.

[00:31:55] Um, yeah, he came here a couple of years ago, entry level position.

[00:31:58] And then the other day he came in, he was like, sorry, I can't come to class.

[00:32:01] Um, they want me to supervise today.

[00:32:03] And I'm like, that's the greatest news I've ever heard.

[00:32:05] I'm like, two years ago, you came here low English.

[00:32:07] Now you're supervising.

[00:32:09] I'm like, you know, I think a lot of people are like, oh, it's taking me forever to learn

[00:32:14] English.

[00:32:14] I'm not getting anywhere.

[00:32:15] But then when you really think about where they started now, or I'll show them sometimes

[00:32:20] I have like their first writing sample.

[00:32:23] A lot of them just cringe now.

[00:32:25] And they're like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe I wrote like that.

[00:32:27] Right.

[00:32:28] And now they're writing full pages and giving five minute presentations.

[00:32:31] Yeah.

[00:32:32] You know, it's just, it's just amazing, um, to see.

[00:32:36] It's amazing to see what just something as easy as language can do.

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:42] Absolutely.

[00:32:42] Time.

[00:32:43] And not as in like, it's going to take month time.

[00:32:45] It's probably going to take years.

[00:32:47] Right.

[00:32:47] And so to be really conscious is like, number one, like, what are your goals?

[00:32:52] Like, where do you want to see yourself in a year?

[00:32:54] I'd say three years and five years.

[00:32:56] Right.

[00:32:56] So then when you're feeling overwhelmed and down, remind yourself, it takes years.

[00:33:01] So then you can kind of remind yourself, these are the steps I'm doing now.

[00:33:05] Um, and this is actually something I'm starting to tell people now.

[00:33:10] And I saw this on Instagram.

[00:33:12] Um, they called it a lore sheet.

[00:33:14] So it's like L-O-R-E.

[00:33:15] Like, and so basically it's anytime something great happens or something good happens in relation

[00:33:21] to maybe the workplace, write it down.

[00:33:23] So when you're feeling like I'm not doing good, I'm not learning, you can go back and

[00:33:28] be like, like that, like that guy, you know, you know, a year ago I was doing this, you

[00:33:33] know, a year later I was in this position.

[00:33:35] Now I'm becoming supervisor to write down all those little successes as they come so that

[00:33:40] you can remember that.

[00:33:42] And also when you go into interviews, you have all these experiences that you can use

[00:33:46] in those interviews.

[00:33:47] Right.

[00:33:48] Um, I think getting a good support system in place is another big piece because

[00:33:54] it is hard in the beginning to adapt and, you know, live in a new culture and learn all

[00:33:59] that stuff.

[00:34:00] So having some people that you can talk to and vent to obviously in your first language,

[00:34:04] cause that's just easier, you know, it's going to make a big difference as well.

[00:34:09] So, but I guess that the biggest thing is, is it's going to be hard.

[00:34:12] It's probably going to suck for a while.

[00:34:14] And you really just have to accept that, embrace that, and just do what you can to take care

[00:34:19] of yourself, have your goals in mind and just, just be open to learning, meeting people and

[00:34:25] just embracing the experience that you're having.

[00:34:29] Great.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:30] Great, great advice.

[00:34:31] I mean, overall it really encompasses everything we've been talking about, um, for this episode.

[00:34:34] Um, now just to wrap it up, uh, Leah, could you maybe let our listeners know how they can

[00:34:39] reach out to you if they have questions, if they want to talk more about what you've been

[00:34:44] discussing with us today?

[00:34:45] Yes, absolutely.

[00:34:46] Um, the best place to reach me is on LinkedIn, Leah Mitchell.

[00:34:51] Um, I also have a website, uh, I'll send that to you guys, prayskyenglish.com.

[00:34:56] People can check me out there and email as well.

[00:35:01] That sounds great.

[00:35:01] Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:35:04] Yeah, thank you.

[00:35:05] Helpful for all our teachers, um, out there who are helping newcomers to, um, different

[00:35:10] countries, but it's more specifically Canada as well.

[00:35:12] And remember, if you would like to hear more about our upcoming episodes and see us on video,

[00:35:21] watch some reels of episodes, uh, go to our Instagram page at ESL talk podcast.

[00:35:26] You can also send us an email with your thoughts, um, to ESL talk podcast at gmail.com.

[00:35:33] And if you'd like to be a guest, we're always open to new guests, new ideas for, um, episodes.

[00:35:39] You can go to our website, ESL talk.ca and hit the button, be a guest and fill out a form.

[00:35:45] And that's also where you can find all our previous episodes and blurbs and links and whatnot.

[00:35:50] But I guess that's it for this week.

[00:35:52] That is it for this week.

[00:35:53] Don't forget to subscribe for new episodes.

[00:35:55] We'll see you very soon for another new episode.

[00:35:57] Bye bye.

[00:36:33] Thank you for listening.

[00:36:35] Don't forget to subscribe for even more ESL teaching content.